3ma 01 barrel?

[louis]

Perhaps a silly question, I have 3ma00 barrels and 3ma10 barrels

But I found one 3ma01 barrel, is this a normal 3ma barrel, does someone has them too?



Louis

[Edd]

Hi Louis;

I have read on the forum somewhere that they are diffrent, I am not sure what is diffrent about them cant recall exactly my guess Boost ports. However I purchased  3 x 3MA bikes recently total basket cases 2 x 3ma1 and 1 x 3ma3. The heads were diffrent 00 and 01. Visually I could not see a difference. But the 00 sleeve goes with the 3ma1 and the 01 sleeves goes with the 3ma3. These bikes also have diffrent cdi's they are also numbered 00 and 01. I know that the reed valves and carbs are diffrent for those sleeves. When we started assembling the bikes I did not know of these differences so we ended up with a 3ma3 with 00 sleeves and a 3ma1 with 01 sleeves. The bikes were not performing that well till I read about these differences an we decided to change reeds and carbs and walla! they were running better. Still trying to get mine sorted putting the engine back together this weekend hopefully I have sorted my burning gearbox oil issue. Used the 3ma 1 crank which is diffrent to a 3ma3 crank had to machine it down for the flywheel to fit.

[Edd]

Hi Louis see the attached document I googled some time ago. This may not all be 100% correct.

Yamaha TZR250W Technical Data
This data applies to the TZR250 3MA and makes reference to Yamaha Technical Bulletin 105 (YTB105). Other data was obtained from experience and magazines etc. Take care applying this data as some of it is specific to certain models and modifications to ignition and mixture/exhaust can result in over advanced ignition or excessively lean fuel conditions. This can cause engine seizure.
The TZR250 3MA is based on the TZ250U factory race model and in New Zealand was commonly referred to as a TZR250W, but YTB105 refers to it as a TZR250R. From memory the previous model was the TZR250T.
 
3MA-01          New Zealand Model (Not necessarily exclusive)
3MA-00          Japanese Model (Not necessarily exclusive)
3MA-70          SP (Sport Production) or F3 Model
 
 
3MA-01 General Specifications
Engine:                         Liquid cooled parallel twin
Bore/Stroke:                    56 x 50.7mm
Corrected Compression:          7.4 to 1
Uncorrected Compression:        14.2 to 1
Maximum Power:                  63PS (47kW) @ 9500RPM
Maximum Torque:                 37.3NM (3.8kg.m) @ 8000RPM
Carburettion:                   2 x 32mm Mikuni, front mounted
Gearbox:                        6 speed
Chassis:                        Aluminium cast/extruded 'Deltabox'
Wheelbase:                      1380mm
Dry Weight:                     136kg
Front Wheel/Tyre:               110/80 x 17"
Rear Wheel/Tyre:                140/70 x 18"
 
   
3MA-00 CDI
Part number:    3MA-85540-00
Case:           071000-0080
PCB:            070233-1220
IC:             071050-0081
Wire Count:     24
 
M1      Black/Red                       YPVS Motor
M2      Black/Brown                     YPVS Motor
TL      White/Blue then White/Black     YPVS Sensor (Valve closed end, 0V)
MH      Yellow/Blue                     YPVS Sensor (Valve open end, +5V)
MM      White/Red                       YPVS Sensor (Wiper)
VM      Brown                           Magneto
VH      Red                             Magneto
VL      Green                           Magneto
SH      White/Green                     Ignition trigger (Signal)
SL      White/Black                     Ignition trigger (0V)
BG      Green/White                     GND
BT      Red/White                       +12V
IG      Orange                          Ignition Coil
G       Black                           Ignition Coil (GND)?
SP      Black/White                     KILL Switch ***
S1      Red/Black                       Air compensator jet set 1 OPEN ***
S2      Green/Black                     Air compensator jet set 2 OPEN ***
LL      Green/Blue                      Speed sensor
LH      Red/Blue                        Speed sensor (Speed output)
ML      Black                           Throttle Position Sensor (0V)
TM      Yellow                          Throttle Position Sensor (Wiper)
TH      Blue                            Throttle Position Sensor (+5V)
SD      Blue/Yellow                     Side stand DOWN switch ***
GP      Light Blue                      NEUTRAL switch ***
 
 
*** Device pulls or is pulled to 0V to give the state indicated in CAPITALS
Pin 13 of the CDI Microprocessor can be used as the logic level RPM source for external circuitry, or if isolated from surrounding onboard circuitry can be fed an external logic source to simulate the Hall effect ignition trigger. This can be useful for bench testing.
Some of these CDI's had an intermittent problem which I believed was associated with the Speed Limiter circuitry within the CDI and I subsequently went on to modify 3MA-00 CDI's to match the 3MA-01 units. This was entirely successful, but unfortunatly I cannot locate any notes concerning this modification. Basically it involved removing several discrete components from the CDI and inserting links.
   
 
3MA-01 CDI
Part number:    3MA-85540-01
Case:           071000-0130
PCB:            070233-1300
IC:             071050-0081
Wire Count:     15
 
M1      Black/Red                       YPVS Motor
M2      Black/Brown                     YPVS Motor
TL      White/Blue then White/Black     YPVS Sensor (Valve closed end, 0V)
MH      Yellow/Blue                     YPVS Sensor (Valve open end, +5V)
MM      White/Red                       YPVS Sensor (Wiper)
VM      Brown                           Magneto
VH      Red                             Magneto
VL      Green                           Magneto
SH      White/Green                     Ignition trigger (Signal)
SL      White/Black                     Ignition trigger (0V)
BG      Green/White                     GND
BT      Red/White                       +12V
IG      Orange                          Ignition Coil
G       Black                           Ignition Coil (GND)?
SP      Black/White                     KILL Switch ***
 
 
*** Device pulls or is pulled to 0V to give the state indicated in CAPITALS
Pin 13 of the CDI Microprocessor can be used as the logic level RPM source for external circuitry, or if isolated from surrounding onboard circuitry can be fed an external logic source to simulate the Hall effect ignition trigger. This can be useful for bench testing.
3MA-01 CDI wiring is the same as the 3MA-00 except it has no wiring for:
Air Compensator assembly
Speed Limiter
Throttle Position Sensor
Side stand switch
Neutral switch
 
 
 
 
3MA-70 CDI
Part number:    3MA-85540-70
Case:           ?
PCB:            ?
IC:             ?
Wire Count:     ?
 
No definite information, but I speculate that the wiring would be similar if not identical to the 3MA-01. The mapping for Ignition Timing and YPVS was probably different to compliment the SP pipes (which, incidentally, had Carbon Fibre mufflers).
 
 
3MA-01 Dashboard instrument wiring connections
Green/Red:              Temperature gauge
Dark Green:             Turn indicator
Light Brown:            +12V Supply
Light Blue:             Neutral light
Yellow:                 High beam light
Dark Blue:              Panel illumination lights
Black:                  GND
Dark Brown:             Turn indicator
Black/Red:              Oil low light
Green/Blue:             Speed limiter
Red/Blue:               Speed limiter
Orange:                 Tachometer input
 
 
 
 
Air Compensator Assembly

Part Number:    3MA-14303-01
Contains 3 sets of air jets which bleed air to the carb bypass system to improve engine efficiency and reduce exhaust emissions. The outer 2 sets are controlled by the CDI using solenoids and they open when current is applied (when their inputs are pulled to ground by the CDI). The centre set is not solenoid controlled and are always open.
For 3MA-00:
Set 1 opens at about 2/3rds throttle (TM = +2.25V)
Set 2 opens on a sudden opening of throttle
For 3MA-01:
The solenoid controlled jets are not used (remain closed).
Centre set are #50 jets.
MAJ2 set (Right hand side) are #160 jets.
MAJ3 set (Left hand side) are #130 jets.
 
   
YPVS (Yamaha Power Valve System)
Alters the exhaust port opening angle depending on the engine RPM, this greatly improves torque at low RPM. It consists of a Servomotor and Potentiometer which provides a voltage output proportional to the power valve opening angle giving feedback for the CDI.
Reference Voltage       MH = +5.00V
YPVS closed             MM = +0.70V
YPVS open               MM = +2.20V
If the Cleaning/Test cycle of the power valves sounds strained: CHECK THEM! You can do this easily by removing the cover on the cylinder where the cables enter. There are two calibration holes to stick a rod into at both open and closed positions. Then juggle your cable adjusters to get them synced. Don't have the overall tension so high that it strains the servo motor. This is especially pronounced if the cables are incorrectly routed in the engine bay with sharp corners etc. I have included the cleaning cycle stages because it is necessary to know the YPVS positions for calibration.
If you remove the power valves from the cylinders be EXTREMELY careful assembling them. Use the right temperature Loctite etc and tighten them to spec or they will come apart.
Stones can get caught in the 'inter-cylinder' power valve linkage causing damage to the linkage and/or the power valves.
Avoid running too rich for too long. The power valves gum up badly with Carbon and won't open fully. They can be cleaned without disassembling the cylinders by disconnecting the linkages and then EASING them past fully open and closed again for a few cycles, but don't force them.
For 3MA-00:
Differs from the 3MA-01 in that the valves are open at idle and close just coming off idle. I speculate that this was to reduce fouling of the valves during periods of extended idling. They remain closed until the high RPM opening phase, I don't have the RPM values for this phase. I don't have the exact cleaning cycle but I seem to recall a difference to the 3MA-01
For 3MA-01:
Valves go from closed to open from 5000RPM to 8500RPM and follow a linear slope.
Cleaning/Diagnostic cycle on power up:
Valves are closed
Ignition turned on
Valves open
Valves close
Valves open
(If ignition now turned off and on again, Valves close, Valves open)
Engine started
Valves close
Valves remain closed until the high RPM opening phase
   
 
Speed Limiter
This is contained within the speedometer unit, it consists of a metal tab on the differentiated drum of the speedometer which interrupts an opto-coupler at about 180kmph. It was discovered that disconnecting the wiring to the speed limiter on the 3MA-00 models caused the rev limiter to cut in at lower revs to safeguard against tampering. The easiest way to defeat this device is to remove the tab from the drum with pliers and reassemble. All the speed limiter does is tell the CDI to start retarding the ignition, to prevent further acceleration. You won't need to rejet or anything. The effect of the mod won't be profound, you may get another 30kmph top speed.
Below 180kmph LH = +2.15V
Above 180kmph LH = +4.55V
I think there is a genuine Yamaha after market accessory which defeats the Speed Limiter. It is installed between the Speed Limiter and the CDI at the Speedometer end. Your bike may already have one fitted.
For 3MA-01:
Speed limiter is not used.
 
 
 
Throttle Position Sensor (T.P.S.)
Provides a voltage output proportional to the throttle setting, for use by the CDI.
Potentiometer resistance                                ML/TH =  4.85Kohms
Reference Voltage                                       TH =    +5.00V
Throttle closed (Idle turned completely down)           TM =    +0.20V
Throttle fully open                                     TM =    +3.30V
For 3MA-01:
Throttle Position Sensor is not used.
   
 
Throttle cable arrangement
As I recall the throttle goes to a splitter, one output of this goes to the carbs, the other goes to a combiner. The other input to this combiner is from the power valves and the output of this combiner goes to the oil pump. I never investigated this too closely but either this arrangement is just to ensure that the pump is running freely, which would be heard during the power up check of the power valves, and/or it varies the ratio of oil Vs throttle setting if the power valves are fully opened. You can easily test that yourself. If you plan on premixing you could just replace the whole birds nest with one cable from the throttle to the carbs!
 
   
 
My personal supplement to Yamaha Technical Bulletin 105
 
 
1) Removing the Carburettor de-icing system (Recommended only for warmer climates)
Refer to YTB105, the relevant tubes are shown circled in bold. Looking at the intakes of the carbs there are tubes on the right hand side of each carb entering from the top. Near where both of these tubes enter you will notice another tube that connects the two carbs together. Pull off all of these tubes and purge out all of the coolant from the carbs (Air gun/blowing). Flushing with some anti-corrosive may be advisable too. Re-connect the hose that links the two carbs. In the other two hoses place a 5/16" ball bearing in each and plug back into the carbs.
 
   
2) Base Ignition Timing Modification
This was performed by my dealer who screwed it up completely. I had some strange engine behaviour on deceleration from long constant runs, so I checked the flywheel. It appeared that the key modification was having no affect on the positioning of the flywheel. On removing the key it became apparent that the it had been roughly filed by some clown, so I got another key and had it modified by an engineering shop. The strange engine behaviour stopped...
 
   
3) Spark Plug Modification
This was performed by my dealer, they just added an extra washer to the Right Hand cylinder. I highly recommend using quality spark plugs which foul less easily, especially if you commute a lot.
 
   
4) Carburetor Settings
My original settings were the same as recommended.
 
 
 
5) Fuel Recommendation
I ran 96 Octane (RON) Leaded fuel.
 
 
 
X) Exhaust modifications
I did this and it was very worth while. (Actually a friend did most of the hard work. Thanks Blair for the time and Gilbert Gardner Bevan for the SHED.) I just shortened the headers and centre section. I didn't bother extending the mufflers, which is to get the total length back to standard for normal tail pipe clearance. This was for aesthetics and/or deceiving the officials in Production Racing! It is also inferred that that the tail pipes should be increased in diameter but mine seemed to be of the larger diameter anyway. The welds were MIG'ed with an Argon shield, you'll need to modify your mounts as well. Take care as the carb specs are for the 32mm models which were standard on the 3MA-01. You could go to 32mm models but start rich of course! I changed to the Q8 (leaner) nozzles, I swapped my Q9 nozzles and #200 mains jets with a guy whose 3MA-00 had the Q8's and #190's. So if your bike is a 3MA-00 it may have already have these. My needle was standard at 6L02-63-2 and I kept at that. I also had the centre jets of the Air Compensator Assembly bored out to 1mm at an engineering shop as instructed.

[louis]

Hello Edd,

Thanks for the information, but I know the site.

Think you have made a Little mistake. I also have a 3ma1 and 3ma3 normally its:

-3ma1 has the 3ma00 barrels
-3ma3 has the 3ma10 barrels (1mm lower exhaust port)

There are many diverens between the 3ma1 engine and 3ma3 engine, some are small other bigger.

I'm riding with a 3ma3 engine with 3ma00 barrels and 32mm carbs. and it made 55hp on a dyno.

Are you sure that you have a 3ma01 barrel? ore do you mean the 3ma10 barrels.

But it is nice that you have the 3ma00 cdi and the 3ma01 cdi. If you have the opportunity to test those one the same bike same setup.
That will be great. I thinking tat a 3ma01 cdi has a bit more power than a 3ma00cdi (But can say it fore 100% sure)
Sadly i cant test it myself (at the moment) do not have a 3ma01 cdi.


You have machinery at you place, that's nice. Which i had that , do have Manny ideas fore changing the 3ma engine's
 

[Edd]

Hi Louis;

Had a look you are correct they are 10 barrels. Fitted the new crank yesterday, found another diffrence the 3ma3 crank is 5mm longer than the 3ma1 crank. I tried to start the bike yesterday no go she only backfires. Can it be because of the Magneto that is 5mm closer to the coils? or is the firing sequence diffrent on the two bikes? I kept the key position of the 3ma1 crank, they should be the same for both bikes?

[louis]

Hello Edd,

I have a bit confusion, you have a 3ma1 engine where you fitted in a 3ma3 crank in (machined 3ma3 crank to fit the 3ma1 flywheel)
Now your flywheel is 5mm closer to the coils. I think that is your problem.

the lobe of the flywheel is also 5mm futher from the pickup, can you change the position off the pickup so it will be going precis over the middle of the lobe.

there is a small change in ignition maps between the 3ma00 cdi and the 3ma1 cdi (coming from the tzr250 3ma1)
the ignition of a 3ma3 cant be used on a 3ma1, so the 3ma10 cdi can't be used on a 3ma1 engine.
If this is what you mean?

I do not know if the key position is diverend from a 3ma1 crank and 3ma3 crank, but i have a 3ma3 engine running the 3ma1 ignition curve (programable ignition) and it is has 19 degrees base advance.

[Edd]

Hi Louis;

Yes it is confusing, I sometimes struggle to keep up with what part is where. The bikes I bought were literally in boxes and the parts were swapped by the guys trying to rebuild these bikes.

I have a 3ma3 engine and electronics(cdi) with a 3ma1 sleeves, crank, reeds and carburetor.(I used the best combo's)You are correct I found that out yesterday and had to move the key position on the crank to get the timing right. I figured about 15 degrees based advance as I did not measure the angle, I just compared key positions and moved the magneto and walla fired up first kick. Will have to remove the crank and cut a new key position 19 degrees advance will do the trick or can I reprogramme my cdi to cater for the 19 degrees advance?

On the taper of the crank we engineered the 5mm out of the equation by increasing the tapered angle on the crank so the flywheel ends up on the exact right place.

[louis]

Hi Edd,

It is getting very interesting fore me to. Let me explane.

I have almost the same setup as you, i do have a 3ma3 engine, 3ma1 sleeves (3ma3 reeds) and the 3ma1 carbs.
and the 3ma3 cdi's (one on the airbox the other in frond by the clocks, a 3ma3 has two cdi's)

I bought a free programmable ignition from ignitech so now i can change what ever i want. ignition curves, pc curves, the airjets etc i can also switch between two ignition curves. Nice to feel if its making a difference.

There is a lot of knowing from the 3ma00 cdi all curves are well known. but there is no information from the 3ma10 cdi (from the 3ma3)
sadly i never put my 3ma on the dyno using the 3ma3 cdi's, but from driving they make less power than the 3ma00 cdi

so what dit i do: I put in the ignitech, the 3ma1 curve with had the 19 degrees base advance, and walla it made 55hp rearwheel a good start.

Perhaps the key position deference between the two crank's has something to do with the difference in diameter between the flywheels???

perhaps it is easier to replace the pickup and make the pickup position adjustable, so you can play with a couple off degrees.
I dit it to (before i had the ignitech) and make a extra pickup 8 degrees out it dit work, only 8 degrees was to much on a stock timing made a 3 degrees out, and that one worked nice. I made it so that i could switch between the standart pickup and the out pickup.


You have machinery you can make it with degrees markings, and then its easy to give the pickup one or two degrees more or less
same as you would put in a woodruff key from 1 ore 2 ore 3 degreesout.
Think that would be very nice

[Edd]

Hi Louis;

Interesting havent thought of moving the pickup. I assume the pickup at the bottom of the flywheel is the adjustable one and the one at the top is not connected to the cdi. The programming of the cdi is done via computer, you just need the software?

[louis]

On the bottom is the one that coud be adjust (remember i do only have a hammer and a shroedriver, you know what i mean )

If i head some machinery i made it with a nice aluminium holder so i coud adjust it easily a couple off degrees more or less.

but both pickups where connected i made it with a relay so i can switch between the standart pickup and the one with a couple off degrees out.

This was all before i had bought my ignitech,
If you are looking fore something try the ignitech the software is free and you can adjust it easy by pc or laptop
you can change everything you want (also the base advance) See here:

http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

I have the: SPARKER DC-CDI-P2 race - tunable two channel capacitive ignition.

Some more tzr250 riders here has them, Fotis has it to and is like me very satisfied about the possibilities

Cheers

[Fotis]

Yes I really liked this purchase...I managed to get every pony from my ypvs and now the power curve is complete linear!(like a 4 stroke)
Edd, so you have a 3ma3 engine but a 3ma1 crank, stator,coils and cylinders....hmmm
How did you manage to put the 3ma1 coils to your 3ma3 engine? As far as I remember they are bigger that the 3ma3 and have different position holes. If I where you I would try to find a 3ma3 stator and coils but now its two late since you machined your 3mA3 crank...Its much lighter than the 3ma1 and its only a low voltage generator (12volts). That means it can work better and more efficient with the ignitech (if you want to buy one of course)
I will bring my 3ma3 to UK next week so I will report my progress with the electronics!

Louis, how did you manage to put the 32mm carbs into 30mm carb rubbers? I tried that, they fit but the rubber blocks the carb area...did you grind it?

[Edd]

Hi Guys;

All my electronics are 3ma3 flywheel magneto cdi etc. Only my mechanical stuff is from the 3ma1 if I could get a rebuild kit for my 3ma3 crank that will be nice but in SA parts are hard to come by and I dont think rebuild kits are available, if I was able to purchase another 3ma3 crank would have done it; no luck tried for 6 months. The two seals next to the balance shaft gear is leaking gearbox oil into my crank case and the outer bearing on the gearbox side is a bit worn out if I was able to replace them would have done it. To get my hands on a crank I need to buy a complete bike. Lots of 3ma1's around not that mutch 3ma3's around. I took my stock standard 3ma3 to our quaterly twostroke gathering 2 weeks ago and the guys were very impressed with the restoration I have done it s probably the only original one left in SA according to them. The guys tend to re-spray and inter change engine parts as they dont know about the suttle diffrences between the bikes and you end up with diffrent sleeves on the same bike after market pistons and rings that dont fit properly.  Seized bikes being sold for next to nothing. The problem is the damage has been done and you end up buying a complete bike to get a crank and that crank is damaged as well. If there is a way out there I would love to know about it as I am told you cannot split and repair the middle part of the crank?